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10 comments

1 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 26, 2013 6:37:50pm

Sadly, it’s unlikely the family will win. The Supreme Court has been consistent in ruling that the police do not have a duty to protect specific members of society.

This suit is more likely to be dismissed on summary judgement than it is to go to trial. I take no pleasure in saying that, but it is the likelihood, based on precedent.

2 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 26, 2013 8:13:26pm

Yep. The courts have held, repeatedly and in worse cases than this, that the police do not have any duty to protect you. en.wikipedia.org is a simlar case about a restraining order. See also en.wikipedia.org

That is one of the single biggest reasons I support the 2nd amendment and the right of self defense - you can not count on the police.

3 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 7:23:36am
The lawsuit contends Tucson police could have prevented Ashley’s murder if they had arrested Francis in preceding months for multiple violations of an order of protection.

The man was breaking the law and the police failed to enforce it. Had they arrested and charged him there is, in my opinion, a much better chance Ashley Hicks would still be alive.

But women, in too many people’s minds, are still property. Property that can be destroyed if the owner wishes. Sad.

4 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:43:41pm

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

Sadly, it’s unlikely the family will win. The Supreme Court has been consistent in ruling that the police do not have a duty to protect specific members of society.

This suit is more likely to be dismissed on summary judgement than it is to go to trial. I take no pleasure in saying that, but it is the likelihood, based on precedent.

re: #2 William Barnett-Lewis

Yep. The courts have held, repeatedly and in worse cases than this, that the police do not have any duty to protect you. en.wikipedia.org is a simlar case about a restraining order. See also en.wikipedia.org

That is one of the single biggest reasons I support the 2nd amendment and the right of self defense - you can not count on the police.

I had no idea how useless a restraining order really is. That’s insane. And it is possible that it will change. Those court decisions had dissenters, and they still have critics. And if a case is found to have different merits, it could end with a different result, If restraining orders were enforced for some, but not for others on some discriminatory basis, for instance.

Until then, a marriage license should come with a license to carry for the wife, because women and children are being slaughtered.

5 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 12:57:13pm

What makes news in Tucson is a routine tragedy totally under the radar in bigger cities. The defenseless are so very vulnerable. I hope this Page and that lawsuit brings change.

6 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:05:18pm

re: #5 Political Atheist

What makes news in Tucson is a routine tragedy totally under the radar in bigger cities. The defenseless are so very vulnerable. I hope this Page and that lawsuit brings change.

It’s totally routine in Tucson, too. The lawsuit is what made it news.

7 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:44:31pm

re: #6 wrenchwench

WW this is one of those awful issues that set me on advocacy for self defense. I could not agree with you more.

8 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:48:53pm

re: #7 Political Atheist

WW this is one of those awful issues that set me on advocacy for self defense. I could not agree with you more.

I was not serious about the license to carry. It is not at all a reasonable idea that an armed woman has a better chance against her husband than an unarmed one. How many women would shoot their husbands, no matter what he did to her? And how many will be shot first, some by their own gun?

Restraining orders have to have some means of enforcement BY THE POLICE. Otherwise a court order is meaningless. Parole violations are enforced, why not restraining orders?

The law must change. If you arm more women, it only means more women will be killed by a gun they OWN.

9 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:24:37pm

re: #8 wrenchwench

I was not serious about the license to carry. It is not at all a reasonable idea that an armed woman has a better chance against her husband than an unarmed one. How many women would shoot their husbands, no matter what he did to her? And how many will be shot first, some by their own gun?

Restraining orders have to have some means of enforcement BY THE POLICE. Otherwise a court order is meaningless. Parole violations are enforced, why not restraining orders?

The law must change. If you arm more women, it only means more women will be killed by a gun they OWN.

I understood that as kinda rhetorical and certainly not literal. And I’m not really talking about guns, but self defense in general. All these things exist to protect the innocent against the predator / killer. Police, strong doors, alarms, martial arts… This kind of thing is why the law needs to leave the innocent room to flee or fight as appropriate. You might recall the woman that was sent to jail over a warning shot. That is what I mean by room to act. She might have brandished a big knife and still been in big trouble. Or hit him with a bat.

Not sure bout Arizona, but in California our pepper spray is 10% of the effective strength cops get, and tasers are a felony. So even the lesser weapons are forbidden. IMO that sucks.

10 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:50:37pm

re: #9 Political Atheist

I understood that as kinda rhetorical and certainly not literal. And I’m not really talking about guns, but self defense in general. All these things exist to protect the innocent against the predator / killer. Police, strong doors, alarms, martial arts… This kind of thing is why the law needs to leave the innocent room to flee or fight as appropriate. You might recall the woman that was sent to jail over a warning shot. That is what I mean by room to act. She might ave brandished a big knife and still been in big trouble. Or hit him with a bat.

And you might recall that the woman sent to jail over a warning shot was not white. She had two strikes against her before the cops arrived.

The problem here is a culture that allows men to control women through violence, and a legal system that won’t contradict those men. We need to convince law enforcement that women are to be believed when they say they are attacked or threatened, even when it was her husband or her boyfriend.

It used to be legal for a man to rape his wife. It was not easy to make it illegal. It’s still not easy to successfully prosecute that crime.

The idea that a woman should be prepared to defend herself in the street is a good one. The idea that she should be prepared to defend herself from her most intimate associates is an insane one.

I want to change the culture. As usual, it has to start with changing the law. Somehow society is going to have to come to terms with enforcing laws against domestic violence. Including restraining orders.

Hard as that is, I think there’s more chance that lives will be saved that way than by advocating for self-defense. Not that you should stop, but recognize that it is not enough.


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